Did Clinton Discuss ‘Wilsonian Armenia’ in Turkey?

Secretary Clinton with Foreign Minister Davutoglu in Turkey last month

MOSCOW—“We—the United States and Turkey—owe Armenia what was promised them by President Woodrow Wilson,” the Moscow-based Regnum news agency quoted Secretary Hillary Clinton as saying during her meetings last month in Turkey, according to the news agency’s “source in the region.”

According to the same Regnum source, during her meetings with Turkish officials last month, Clinton also allegedly outlined a new Middle East and Caucasus map after an envisioned end to the Karabakh conflict. This map, which supposedly not only includes the deployment of peace-keeping forces to the Karabakh conflict zone, also envisions exchange of territories and transport routes.

The Regnum source indicated that aforementioned discussion was about granting Armenia a corridor to the port of Trabizon, following a possible ratification of the Turkey-Armenia protocols.

Regnum also discussed a possible territorial exchange with Azerbaijan, to be overseen by US Ambassador to Baku, Matthew Bryza. The Regnum source said that process would be the creation of a “Greater Azerbaijan.”

Essentially, what this anonymous Regnum news agency source if saying, is that Karabakh would be given back to Azerbaijan, with a guarantee that Armenia would have access to a sea port.

Fact or fiction? It’s food for thought.

Authors

Discussion Policy

Comments are welcomed and encouraged. Though you are fully responsible for the content you post, comments that include profanity, personal attacks or other inappropriate material will not be permitted. Asbarez reserves the right to block users who violate any of our posting standards and policies.

44 Comments

  1. The Truth said:

    Maybe and most probably well thought fictions to test Armenia? .. Still a 200 to 300 hundreds ‎kilometer wide “corridor” to black sea via Turkey/ West Armenian including having parts of ‎Arstakh would be in long term in favor of Armenia…. This Azerbaijani Republic – if not in 10 ‎but most probably in 20 years – will become a fanatic Islamic state …and if Iran becomes ‎weaker it would fall either in parts or a confederation as it was the case with Soviet union .. ‎

    Any way Armenia should recognize NKR/Arstakh as an automats Republic within Armenia, ‎before the rulers in Baku start playing the “Islamist cards“, after realizing that they are failing ‎to gain back Arstakh! ‎

    Fiction or not fiction: This is Armenia which has to ask officially ( at lest formal) all countries ‎which did sign the treaty of Lausanne to cancel all parts which refers to Armenian territories ‎by referring to the facts regarding Wilsonian Armenia.‎

    Armenia has ever right to ask for a revision of treaty of Lausanne!‎

  2. ed said:

    Most probably dirty propaganda with the aim to do harm to the economy of Karabakh by ‎making the population to leave the territory and more… Armenia should finally recognize ‎Karabakh and give the population and the region a certain security and put an end to such ‎kind of dirty tricks! …‎

  3. ed said:

    ‎ PS: What anonymous Regnum forgot to mention is: and certainly almost bankrupt western ‎nations above all US have promised Billions of $$ to Armenia to build this and that after Armenian has agreed to creation of ” Greater Azerbaijan” which is a new term for “Pan Turan” …

  4. Kirk said:

    It’s not a fiction.This scenario existed already.What I am afraid is,that now Armenia might have given
    approval for this plan and US/Turkey are trying to implement it.
    For Russia this is a threat and NO WAY acceptable.

  5. Grish Begian said:

    Atrsakh and Western Armenia will be always part of Armenia…Lady Clinton become under influence of Mr. Davutoghlu philosophy…Turks can fool Americans, but not Armenians!!

  6. Hrant K. said:

    Now we know why erdogan and aliev were so fumingly angry with President Sarkissian’s answer to

    the brave and intelligent student a week ago. The cracks of the ‘turkish disease infested baloon’ is

    slowly becoming more and more imminent! The implosion in turkey has commenced!!!!

    This time, when a great flood takes place, there will be room only for the Armenian people to land

    on Mount Ararat, because no matter how good and fast the turks can swim from Constantinople and

    Angorra, Yerevan is far too nearer to the 2 Cliffs than the above two!!!! :0 :)

  7. Alex said:

    What the hell are they smoking on the Capitol Hills? How about they give our lands back without us taking any more compromises, Armenian Genocide was all the compromise that we can take.

  8. Arthur I said:

    7 titegh teghin vosgin chenk havadar odarneroun khosgin. They already tried tis trick of promises aftet WWI and every single one not only welched, but also engaged in further weakening of Armenia in avor of all Turkish tribes. UK, US, France, Italy, Russia – all promised and only promised, nothing more. Mrs. Clinton, until Russian and Armenian contingents are stationed on the currently occupied territories between RA and Trabizon, we will not give up an inch of liberated territories in the East. After all, it’s all ours – from Adana to Baku, from Kaputan to the Black sea. The self serving isolation of Iran is the real ploy of Mrs. Clinton. But why do we need access to a sea whose worldwide access is conttolled by Turkey, while we give up water rich Artsakh for arid Eastern Turkey?

    This not as good a deal as it first seems. No. Artsakh is ours. Period. For peace, we might give up some of the buffer zone. Shahumian will be the exchange for Lachin and surrounding areas in equal area.

    Genocide reparations and return of occupied territories of the First Armenian Republic first recognized by Turkey as an independent state is a separate issue. We might consider exchanging reparations and return of Western Armenia in exchange for access to the Black sea. But for the return of Wilsonian Armenia and reparations for those losses shpuld only earn Turkey our forgiveness amd future good relations.

    Forgive my typos, not easy on phone.

  9. Mihran said:

    Sounds like the old plan to exchange Artsakh for Meghri. I forget the name of the State Dept./RFE guy who proposed that.

    Also, what is the idea of a corridor thru Trabzon? If the Armenian – Turkish border were to open, the port would presumably be open to all.

    I would not believe anything Russia or Clinton says.

  10. Barkev Asadourian said:

    No way our lands Artsakh been liberated forever for Armenia,
    and the rest of Wilsonian terretory will returnn to Armenians
    as per Continental Laws shared with USA.

  11. Random Armenian said:

    Riiiiiight. I’ll buy that for a dollar.

    Karabakh in exchange for access to a black sear port. This is not a territory for territory swap but access through Turkey.

    This is beyond fiction.

  12. Roman said:

    The more I read or listen news about Obama/Clinton less likely I’m willing to vote for these people.
    Lies,lies and lies and lies.

  13. Armen Simonian said:

    Dear Mrs. Clinton, please do not insult our intelligence by offering guarantees from Azerbaijan, or Turkey, they have never kept any of their promises they never will, they can not and will not be trusted. Karabakh belongs to the Armenian people and will be in Armenian control………… Maybe we will consider giving back some of the portions outside of Karabakh in exchange for a territory that would have access to the port and that territory would be officially and worldwide recognised new Armenian territory. again they keep all their guarantees to themselves, they violated all international peace process laws, by using snipers on our people, if they ever offer any route to the sea port, it would be temporarily from them and then they would use snipers and attack any one going on that route, so therefore please do not insult our intelligence and offer solid/tangible items, guarantees are senseless and we dont believe in them.

  14. Papken Hartunian said:

    “Fact or fiction? It’s food for thought”
    Asbarez readers deserve food for thought much much more than this article! By the way, not everyone knows about Wilsonian Armenia. May be an analysis of aftermath of returning any part of our liberated territories could be a proper food of thought.

  15. Tsoghig said:

    Is there any indication that Armenia’s government or the Armenian diaspora in the US was party to these decisions? I find it hard to believe that on Secretary Clinton’s urging, Turkey would give lands back to Armenia or that the Dept of State decided that since Turkey would give Armenia some lands back, that Armenia in return would give Karabagh back to Azerbaijan. I am skeptical of this story…I wonder what your thoughts are Ara?

  16. manooshag said:

    Too, yes, certainly,food for thought…
    Too, Armenia is capable of becoming the ‘switzerland’ of the Caucasus!!
    Too, just think… all monies that Turks spend – ‘dispurse/ing’ to all USA lobbyists (and others) especially now, the obvious existence of a Schmidt (she lies too) within halls of our USA Congress (more – since “payoffs” are one of the Turkish mode of reaching out) ALL these Turkish “efforts” – deviously such monies that – instead – shall have been applied to all the reparations Turkish leaderships owe and more, historically, via their Ottoman leaderships and their leaderships (maintaining still their Ottoman mentality into today… for so many generations).
    Too, bullying Turkish leaderships, renown for their abuses of Armenians in Armenia,
    Too, abusing Armenians, even those scattered the world over due to Armenian Survivors who had fled/escaped the Turkish Genocide of the Armenian nation. A Genocide which is still ongoing/unending… hence still pending, still abusive of Armenians – conitnued – even today – 2011!
    Too, the Turkish Genocide of the Armenian nation recognized in over 20 nations, the Vatican, the International Genocide foundations (albeit USA leadership -politically- is incapable of recognition of the Turkish Genocide of the Armenian nation).
    President Theodore Roosevelt had said that the worst event of all the World War I was the Turkish deliberately planned and executed elimination of the Armenians…. now nearly 100 years!!
    Too, IMAGINE! USA citizens from 43 of the 50 states of the USA – morally – join to recognize the truth, too, historically there is a Turkish Genocide of the Armenian nation YET White House and USA State Department – politically, can not – morally.
    Germans faced their nations guilt for the Jewish Genocide… making reparations… realizing the inhumanity of all that the Nazis had brought upon their people. Shamefully, Turkish leaderships appear to take pride of their acts inhumanity… and are still continuing their pursuit of the elimination of Armenians!!
    Too, Turkey’s leaderships cannot face their own inhumanity used by their leaderships that still today, is apparent in Turkish abuses of the fledgling Armenian nation and diasporan Armenians – scattered across the world as a result of the Turkish Genocide of the Armenian nation. Today, Turks in educating their students are teaching them to believe that Armenians were the perpetrators – UNBELIEVABLY – Turks the victims!!
    Too, for all their so-called efforts “before all the world” – but yet in a Turkey – Turk leaderships still use their education system to maintain/pursue hate for the Christian Armenians – lying!
    Too, Turks won/stole the Armenian lands, Armenian properties, Armenian cultures, Armenian women and children – and more… (not by war – but via Genocide of the Armenian nation) today still – lying – claiming all that was of the Armenians – now, all were of a Turkeys – historically??

  17. Pongo said:

    Armenia needs to stand firm against somebody’s else trial to draw its own borders.
    Armenians have always suffered the policies of the big brothers around, so they need to be ready to any evenience.

  18. Larry said:

    FICTION!!! It was never ratified in Congress, just as the League of Nations were never ratified! It’s no legally binding and you all know it! So move on and stop dreaming!!

    • HADJIN.com said:

      Sultan Larry , whether it was ratified or not , whether you like it or not , whether you accept it or not , Western Armenia is the historic Homeland of the Armenian nation . whether you like it or not it was STOLEN criminally . whether you like it or not TURKs committed GENOCIDE and extermination of a Peoples in order to get their filthy hands on our territories . All these wrongs will need to be Righted to the survivors and descendents of Genocide , Whether you Accept it or NOT .

      • Mardick Nadjarian said:

        Larry get informed before opening your ignorant mouth.A mandate for arbitration doesn’t need to be ratified by any public body.The arbitration results were accepted by the powers that requested the arbitration from the American President Mr.Wilson and it is still binding.The fact of the matter is that rapid changes occurred then like the taking over of Armenia by the communists in December 2nd 1920 by Russian Bolsheviks,and Armenia ceased to exist as an independent country until 1991.

  19. Jena said:

    I can’t believe anyone believes this crap. One, it doesn’t say who their “reliable” source is. Two, it’s from a news agency that I’ve never heard of (and if it was true, it would undoubtably be on all the major Russian news agencies). Which means it’s got to be propaganda. I don’t believe Turkey would agree to it in a million years, I doubt Armenia would, and Karabakh most likely wouldn’t. Also, I don’t think Hillary Clinton would be dumb enough to propose such a thing, given the fact that Turkey and Armenia don’t even have diplomatic relations, and Turkey isn’t even involved in the Karabakh negotiations. Nice try.

    • Mardick Nadjarian said:

      You interests should be finding out historical facts.Indolence it’s good creator of couch potatoes .

  20. Purge AZ said:

    In order to discuss Western Armenia effectively we must first silence the barking dog of the East.

    To me it seems the destruction of an artificial country of “Azerbaijan” is the only solution to peace, and solution to Armenia’s, Iran’s, and Russia’s problems.

    Enough of this impostor Tatar state! Send them back to Central Asia!

    Their Territorial Integrity is in Central Asia, not on historic Armenian lands!

    • manooshag said:

      Purge AZ, Azeris have only been, sort of a nation only since 1918. Azeris, typically Turkic muslin thinking exaggerates that Azeris have been a nation forever… Only oil has brought the Azeri to see the light… Their Azeri leaders use the oil monies for themselves… But their Azeri citizenry – live poorly. Guess what,,, Azeris leaderships blame Armenians for their poor conditions to their own Azeri citzenry… while the Azeri leaders are spending the oil monies on the properties they have/are buying the world over – for themselves.

  21. Z said:

    No way. Artsakh is liberated and more lands should be liberated. Only forward, no way back. A new war would settle many matters.

  22. Garen said:

    It’s surprising to see Asbarez giving even minimal credence to such an obvious piece of misinformation.

  23. hayrenaser said:

    sut@ asum en vorpes irav…
    k@ tesnem u yetq@ k@ havatam, i nman chhavatatsogh thomas araqyalin
    minj ayn zhmanak… sa sepvum e aghmukayin keghtotuthyun

    they tell a lie as if they’re telling the truth…
    i believe it when i see it, just like doubting st. thomas
    until then…all of this is nothing but sound pollution

  24. armo1 said:

    everyone, please! this article, and idea have started by an anonimous person? It’s all nonsense. Turkey will never agree to giving up one square inch. It hasn’t in the past, it won’t happen in the near future either. Our goal as Armenians is to finally convince the remaining countries to recognise the Genocide, then these reparations will be much easier to come by. Ordinary citizens along with organizations must file suit, and make life a living hell for Turkey. Truth is on our side, let’s us the resouces of our powerful Diaspora to our advantage! And by the way, who said another war in NKR is such a bad thing? Our arny is no ragtag army, and another victory can be achieved with a minimal cost. If you don’t think so, read about the Yom Kippur war!

  25. manooshag said:

    If Azeris get too annoying…. just aim straight for their oil pipelines… enough to distract them… this they would understand – in their muslim Ottoman mentality – they’d understand when the pipelines begin to ‘leak’. Aping the Turks, too, Azeris would rather commit Genocides… easier/faster to eliminate humans… than for Turks/Azeris to use their soldiers and military might. They do know that they could lose their war – as the Azeris were the losers of their war against Artsakh/NK… And, too, a Turkey, has not ‘warred’ since they were allied with the losers of WWI. Too, Turks only joined with the Allies/winners of WW2 at the very latest possible moment in order to be included with winners… Since then,Turks only send token numbers to any war zone – in order not to be committed to having made a declaration of war – which, again, they may be the losers.

    • Elchin said:

      Manushoog Muslim,Muslim,Muslim…do you have problem with muslims??When Turks put you guys in Heineken bottles and throwed out of Anatolia Muslim Arabs opened their arms to you, although i wish they hadnt help you and we would live better now.

      • bigmoustache said:

        thats right, we owe a lot to the arabs so stop this muslim bashing crap you ingrates

      • HADJIN.com said:

        elchin , elchin , elchin , where would you be today without jews helping you found turkistan on Stolen Armenian lands , where’d you be without israyell arming your millitary , where’d you be without yisrayel financing your banks and your economy . rest assured the fountain is drying up and days are numbered .
        And stop badmouthing Arabs , they have more honor in one fingernail compared to whole turks .

  26. HADJIN.com said:

    Re : Did Clinton Discuss ‘Wilsonian Armenia’ in Turkey?

    – It’s one of the oldest tricks in the book , ask any used car salesman in US , it’s called bait and switch .

  27. Sahin said:

    The ridiculous notion of “Wilsonian Armenia” is even more of a ridiculous wet dream then the notion of the “Mexican Reconquista of SW America” or the resurection of “Aztlan” or Poland becoming a part of Germany again.

  28. Mardick Nadjarian said:

    Mrs Clinton’s saying implies she is aware of the mandate of then President Wilson to arbiter the borders of Turkey and the Republic of Armenia,promulgated November 22nd 1920.This arbitration was binding and was not implemented,and this is what is owned to the Armenian people,by Turkey,France,Britain,and United States.Under international law it is still valid, has no statue of limitation.Something major has to compel them to enforce it.Good will perhaps?doubted,by an act of God? possibly.An exchange of Turkey entering the EU.?a possibility.Wilsonian Armenia was ignored after giving the mandate to President Wilson by the European powers mentioned above and accepted the results by them and even Turkey.It is long overdue to administer justice and give back the land that was taken from them by the trespassers,in reality is only a portion of the total stolen from the people that owned the land for over 3.000 thousand yrs.

*

Top